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Re: fatty liver disease...good web siteFrom: Amy (anonymous@obgyn.net)Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:05:57 -0600 (CST)
At Sat, 23 Feb 2002, cat wrote: > >Hi, I don't know if I have fatty liver because I've never been tested, >but from what I've read I suspect most people with IR have some degree >of liver dysfunction. > >A really good web site about liver dysfunction and fatty liver is >http://www.liverdoctor.com > >Also if you can find a book called 'Let's Get Well' by Adelle Davis, >read chapter 16 (Liver Damage Has Become Widespread). This chapter is >about how liver damage is common because of all the chemicals in our >foods and because of poor modern diets (and it was written in 1965 so >think how much worse it must be now!!). Here are some quotes from it >that I think are very interesting: > >'Failure of the liver to synthesize enzymes needed to inactivate various >hormones allows excessive amounts to accumulate in the body, resulting >in a variety of unpleasant symptoms.... Too little insulinase permits >the insulin in the blood to be excessive and the blood sugar to remain >consistently low. Hyperinsulinism, or hypoglycemia, describing this >situation, has become a common diagnosis within recent years, though >easily prevented or corrected by an adequate diet.' > >'When an injured liver permits female hormones to accumulate, men >occasionally develop enlarged, swollen breasts.... Failure to >inactivate male hormones has been produced in female rats by diets >inadequate in protein and the B vitamins. To my knowledge it has not >been studied in women, but liver damage probably accounts for excessive >growth of hair on the face and upper lip.' > >'In any case where foods are inefficiently utilized or hormones appear >to be excessive, liver damge should be considered as a possible cause >and the diet improved accordingly.' > >'Unfortunately the American diet is the very one by which liver damage >is produced in animals. Massive areas of the liver are replaced by scar >tissue when rats are given diets high in refined carbohydrate and >saturated fats or slightly deficient in magnesium.' > >'Diets high in complete protein, vitamin C, the B vitamins, particularly >cholin, and especially vitamin E, hasten its regeneration.' > >Anyway this post is far too long so I'll shut up now!!! lol > >-- >Cat xxx > >At Sat, 23 Feb 2002, tera wrote: >> >>Hi! >> >>Just an F.Y.I. on all of this liver and PCOS talk. **Fatty liver the >>benign kind or the inflammatory more serious kind (NASH) are not >>considered to be symptoms of PCOS!!** Just because you have PCOS does >>not mean that you will develop NASH. However, it seems as though from >>my research that the majority of NASH patients are middle aged women who >>have insulin difficulities or who are diabetic, overweight and have high >>lipid levels. I don't want to scare any of you ladies since many if not >>most of you will never deal with NASH but many of us ladies with PCOS >>are in this category and it is just more reason to keep our weight down >>and to stick to our healthy diet plans that include doing something for >>our insulin levels! The factors of keeping our weight down, lowering >>lipid levels, having a healthy diet, etc. will go a long way to keeping >>us healthier overall and reducing the chances of any potential damage to >>our organs. >> >>It is my belief that if I did not have PCOS I would not be overweight (I >>was thin before the onset of my PCOS), have higher lipid levels, not >>have insulin difficulties hence I would not have had any risk factors >>for benign fatty liver or for NASH. So, in that way I link my NASH to >>my PCOS. God bless! Tera >> >>P.S. The majority of people with NASH seem to be the group of women >>that I mentioned above. However men can get it and people who are not >>overweight can also get it. You can also get an enlarged liver and >>elevated enzymes from improper diet and certain medications as well. >> >>At Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Amy wrote: >>> >>>At Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Barbra wrote: >>>> >>>>At Sat, 23 Feb 2002, tera wrote: >>>>> >>>>HI, >>>>Thought I'd pop in for a question here. >>>>I had elevated billirubin from my liver tests. >>>>They say that I don't have an enlarged liver just from them feeling it. >>>>No ultrasound has been performed.I have the bloated belly,the fat >>>>roll,and nausea,bowel problems and am gaining weight. >>>>I go in quite often for liver function tests.I believe there is a panel >>>>of four tests,,I am not sure.It's that billirubin one that keeps coming >>>>back abnormal at times.Liver problems are in my family...my mom's side >>>>of course.Bad genes on that side! >>>> >>>>Apparantly,I was told the last two visits that my billirubin tests were >>>>fine and all liver tests were within normal range now.I have bowel >>>>problems galore....coated tongue....every symptom that would suggest >>>>liver abnormalites,yet,my doctor has not looked further into >>>>this,despite my constant nagging complaints of my bloating belly and >>>>nausea and bowel problems. >>>>If your liver isn't working fine,,,well that could explain some other >>>>issues we have with weight gain. >>>>I don't drink alchohol either. >>>>Question is:Is any of your billirubin tests abnormal??I was yellow at >>>>the time....told it was a drug reaction,possibly from tylenol. >>>>I have been told over and over again by my sister in law in California >>>>that has had severe problems with fatty liver,to try Milk Thistle.She >>>>swears it cleansed her liver.Her doctor was one that said it was >>>>something that needed attention and she could reverse the damage by >>>>detoxing her liver.He also said endocrine problems cause this ,as can >>>>obesity and poor diet...even eating poorly as a young person.She is also >>>>IR...seems diabetes causes this as well. >>>>I think this is related to pcos.I will find the post I came across...it >>>>is Canadian...but it is very informative....problem is...I cannot find >>>>it now.I copied the website and it won't let me paste it. >>>> >>>>I will try again later...too tired now to look for it!Oh, and what is >>>>NASH? >>>>Funny that today,my doctor returned my call about my diarrhea from >>>>starting the met,prescribed by the other specialist...he didn't know I >>>>was on it...and now he told me to stop it.HMMM .,,,makes me wonder.Since >>>>on the metformin,I have nagging diarrhea and is yellow....not a good >>>>sign at all.He asked the color and I told him,he said to stop the met >>>>and come in this week.Shoot,,,this is getting me frustrated as >>>>well.There is a forum and I promise I will find it for u! >>>> >>>>>Hi! >>>>> >>>>>I was diagnosed with NASH about the same time I was diagnosed with PCOS. >>>>>I had a really great family practice doctor at that time who finally >>>>>LISTENED to all of my medical problems and tried to get to the bottom of >>>>>them all. Along with my PCOS symptoms I also told her I had swelling in >>>>>my upper right quadrant and pain there as well. I told her it had been >>>>>going on for about a year. She ordered an ultrasound which showed that >>>>>my liver was enlarged. She sent me in for a C.T. scan and she did >>>>>blood tests and said that my liver enzymes were "off." I'm not sure what >>>>>my numbers were at that time. She asked me if I drank a lot and I said >>>>>"no" and then she tested me for hepatitis which I did not have. She >>>>>sent me to a G.I. specialist who said that he looked over my blood test >>>>>results, ultrasound and C.T. scan and said that my liver was enlarged >>>>>because it was fatty and that it was probably because of my weight >>>>>(about 200 lbs. at that time). He told me I had NASH. I asked if it >>>>>was serious and he said usually not. He said it could cause cirrosis >>>>>(sp?) but that it was very rare for that to happen. I asked him if my >>>>>liver would "shrink" if I lost weight. He said "maybe" or "probably". >>>>>That was it. No other treatment was offered and no biopsy was done. So, >>>>>needless to say I walked away feeling pretty relieved. >>>>> >>>>>A while after that I went to a reproductive endo about trying to become >>>>>pregnant and she said that she has seen this condition in women with >>>>>PCOS. She said that it is related to insulin problems and diabetes and >>>>>thus can be related to PCOS. She said that if I did not have PCOS I >>>>>probably wouldn't have a fatty liver. This was the first time I had >>>>>heard that. My G.I. did not mention my PCOS but he did know that I had >>>>>it and he did not acknowledge a link. When I first discovered this site >>>>>I mentioned my NASH and a few said that NASH is not a PCOS symptom. I >>>>>agree but I also feel that it CAN happen to women with PCOS. I have >>>>>since done quite a bit of research on the web on this condition. I have >>>>>discovered that it is much more serious than my G.I. lead me to >>>>>believe. There are two kinds of "fatty liver" -- a regular, benign >>>>>fatty liver and NASH which means that some level of liver damage or >>>>>scarring has probably occurred and much swelling can be involved. No >>>>>one knows for sure why some people develop "regular" fatty liver and >>>>>some develop NASH. From my research I discovered that although anyone >>>>>can develop NASH the average person is a middle aged woman with diabetes >>>>>or who has insulin problems! That is true according to my research. I >>>>>am going to another G.I. specialist soon to discuss my supposed NASH >>>>>diagnosis soon. It seems from my research that there are conflicting >>>>>viewpoints out there as to what makes up a positive NASH diagnosis. Some >>>>>say that you can tell by the blood tests. Some say that the damage has >>>>>to be determinded by doing a biopsy. I did not have a biopsy. My G.I. >>>>>made my diagnosis based on bloodwork and scans. I recently had a liver >>>>>panel done and I do not have the results in front of me. I had it done >>>>>because I wanted to start Glucophage and I wanted a liver panel done to >>>>>determine if my liver could handle it or not (you're not supposed to >>>>>take it if you have liver problems). My doc said that my ALT or AST -- >>>>>I'm not sure which was 46 and "normal" is 40. She said that my liver >>>>>was slightly "off" but it was not off the charts so she thought that it >>>>>would be safe for me to take it. That's what I'm doing right now. I >>>>>have read that Metformin might even help NASH since it helps diabetes >>>>>and IR. Anyway, what do you think of my levels? I wanted you to know >>>>>that you're not alone! Sorry so long! God bless! Tera >>>>> >>>>>At Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Amy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>At Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Amy wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Okay, I haven't been here at all in prolly a yr, but o well. Anyway I >>>>>>>was told today that I had fatty liver disease and I was going to have a >>>>>>>liver biopsy so they could see how bad it was. Well I couldn't find >>>>>>>hardly anything about it on any site, since I don't drink. I just >>>>>>>remember reading a while back about it and it said that endocrine >>>>>>>disorders can maybe cause it, however, that was only one place I found >>>>>>>it. I am having so much trouble finding anything about this, even my >>>>>>>mom (who is a nurse) couldn't find anything about it in any of her >>>>>>>medical books. Well I know I read some of you had fatty liver, but does >>>>>>>anyone have fatty liver disease? (wishing there was a forum somewhere >>>>>>>for that, but so far I havent' found one). >>>>>>>Well, my history here is that I did have hepatitis A and mono about a yr >>>>>>>and a half ago, but I've been diagnosed with PCOS for about 2-2 1/2 yrs. >>>>>>>I just lucked out that I found out I had PCOS I guess, since I am not >>>>>>>sexually active so therefore me being infertile never came up, only that >>>>>>>I have a diligent dr who takes me seriously did I find out I had this in >>>>>>>the first place, and now that I have something wrong with my liver. >>>>>>>Anyways, (I tend to go off on tangents, sorries) I went to the dr last >>>>>>>august cause I was sick to my stomach for a while and they did bloodwork >>>>>>>and my liver enzymes came out way high. So they did a sonogram of my >>>>>>>liver and my spleen and then they did the SAME things this past jaunuary >>>>>>>and the liver enzymes came out high, and so did an elevated liver >>>>>>>function test and I had fat in my liver and both it and my spleen are >>>>>>>enlarged. I am still waiting to actually have the biopsy done, but the >>>>>>>dr is fairly confident that's what I have because he did all my other >>>>>>>bloodwork to check for other things and those came out normal. Anyways, >>>>>>>I just remember getting the most help from this site no matter what the >>>>>>>heck was wrong with me, whether or not it had to do with PCOS. You are >>>>>>>more supportive than any other site I've seen so far. >>>>>>>If you can help then please reply, information or good sites or if you >>>>>>>have it yourself, any of those would help me A LOT. Thanks!!! :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>PS wow this is long, heh >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>Hey this is Amy again and well I hadn't been here oooo in quite a while, so I thought I'd let you know what they said about this. I did finally find a site with a message board today, the only problem it isn't for only NASH, it's for any gastro disease. But anyway, I had my liver biopsy done and they confirmed fatty liver disease. They have given me urso (experimental with this disease), told me to lose weight and take vitamin E (not quite sure why that). Well since then it's taken me quite a long time, the day I went in for my biopsy in july I was 243 lbs and now am 210, so I guess that is an improvement, but I haven't lost anything else since the beginning of the yr. I have now found far more reasearch on this disorder amazingly even from a yr ago when they told me I might have it. They said I had fat in my liver and that it was inflammed, hence steatohepatitis or non-alcoholic steatohepatitis since I don't drink. Now FINALLY they are finding that insluin resistance is common in >> >>>p >>>>e >>>>>ople with this disease which would make me wonder about most of the people here. But anyway, the latest research I've gotten with this is one metformin has been known to completely eliminate fatty liver in mice at least (I don't know how it would work on the disease since it isn't the same in severity), but still interesting since that is one thing prescribed for PCOS. O and yes I found something else on people with NASH actually creating alcohol in their bowels with this disease done by john hopkins university, it is interesting to me at least. >>>>>>Now all of that is interesting, but what I'm having a hard time with is... that my enzymes were over 600 and if people I know ask about me and what the dr said (because they knew I had a biopsy) and I tell em I have fatty liver disease, they'll say I have fatty liver and they have no pain, no swelling, no jaundice and their enzymes are like as one girl said 118. They think o it's no big deal when my dr told me very specifically because of the severity of mine and of being so young as I am, I may actually need a liver transplant. It is just irritating I think when people just kinda take it as a no big deal, nor do they understand the reason I get sick so often is directly related to my liver as both my pcp and gi dr told me. They think I am making up the disease just because they have never heard of it. (sound familiar? ran into that with pcos too) Then I was getting so irritated from all that and no one taking me seriously at all, until my cousin tells me that some friends of hers >> >>>d >>>>a >>>>>ughter was 16 and died from NASH because it went untreated and unrecognized until it was too late. By the time hers was treated her liver was 4-5 times the size it is supposed to be. So I'm not taking this news very well either, but at least someone out there understands my concern. She told me that couples dr had told them that people likely to die from this get it younger (maybe because the older you are you have more health problems that you could die from??? I don't know). I am so frustrated I want to scream, I go back to the dr soon (both the pcp and the gi) and maybe they can tell me if all this work has done any good at all. >>>>>>I am thinking I may have to start my own site with my own board just for that disease so I can get some help there. But anyway sorry if I ramble, don't make sense or am emotional, but I just met this girl two days ago that has had 13 liver biopsies and a liver transplant and she knows people with this same disease as I have (even though it's not what she has) and she seemed to think my gi dr was a horrible one for various reasons I don't want to get into, but it's making me question how seriously I need to take this and if I should change drs. >>>>>>Thanks for listening to my complaints. >>>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Tera >>>>> >>>>-- >>>>Gentle hugs to all, >>>>Barbra Camara >>>> >>>-- >>>Well my mom (a nurse) told me that some people on met can go into renal failure, but I don't know if that's what he's looking for or not. >>>As far as the bilirubin goes, mine was completely normal, UNLESS I come in at the time and my eyes are yellow. But I do get worse jaundice (in particular the eyes) from taking tylenol or medicine with tylenol in it. (vicoden, nyquil, etc...) So far they have told me not to take anything at all for pain if I can absolutely avoid it as most drugs are processed in the liver. >>>I also know they said that taking estrogen (bcps, since most of us have high testorone we take estrogen ones) can sometimes cause some of this. >>>I had a WHOLE bunch of bloodwork done on me. Hepatitis (all of them were checked and I was fine). My bilirubin was fine. They checked my gallbladder, it was fine. They did liver function tests, they were NOT fine. My ultrasound was NOT fine. My liver biopsy was NOT fine. But they ran a whole slew of bloodwork on me to rule out everything else. >>>If you have liver problems in your family I'd be concerned. I however don't have any liver problems in my family that I know of, so I was shocked. Diabetes yes, I would have expected something like that. Ironically, they sent me to a dietitian for this and they told me to eat almost exactly like diabetics eat, except absolutely NO artificial sweeteners. We all know that's similar to how people with PCOS are supposed to eat. >>>As for the swelling, my swelling has gone down considerably since I started taking the urso, the dr prescribed for it. I do get diarrhea from the medicine as well, ESPECIALLY when I eat something I shouldn't or I eat too much at once. I don't know about the coated tongue, but that can be a sign of other liver problems I've been told, but as far as I know of not NASH. >>>If you can find that site for me that'd be helpful instead of coming on here and talking about it. >>>NASH- Non-alcoholic Steatohepatitis >>>Non-alcoholic (meaning your steatohepatitis isn't caused by alcohol) >>>Steato- meaning fat >>>hepa- meaning liver >>>itis- meaning inflammation >>>So it's basicallly you have fat in the liver and swelling (inflammation) that is not caused by alcohol. >>>Yes, see I was told by my dr that their were 4 levels here. That it can cause cirrhosis. >>>level 1- fatty liver >>>level 2- fatty liver disease (either alcoholic or non-alcoholic steatohepatitis) >>>level 3-fibrosis >>>level 4 cirrhosis >>>I am on the worse end of level 2, not quite but almost fibrosis, so yes I am worried. What my gi told me was basically I don't need a new liver right now, but the possibility in my case is pretty likely, but probably not until I am older (40 or so). >>>At least they are doing more reasearch for it. Johns Hopkins University is the only place I've found with the most recent kinds of reasearch. They were the ones that tried the metformin and think your body could be making it's own alcohol. Interesting theories anyway, so we will see what comes of them. >>>I really don't think if I hadn't had PCOS that I would have this problem, because I wouldn't have gotten so big to begin with, or at least it wouldn't be as severe as it is. >>>Alright well I need to go now and I hope this made some sense. >>>I don't know how high my bilirubin was though for the one that said hers was 46, I don't have the lab results in front of me. I think I'll ask for a copy of what it was and what it is now, so I can compare the two and keep track of what I'm doing. >>>O and yes I've been told that Milk Thistle worked really well for this too (but be careful, people with this aren't really supposed to take many vitamins or anything, they should get it from food). I was also told that if you have hay fever and allergies that it wasn't the best idea to take that as some people are allergic to it since it is basically a weed. >>> >>-- >>Tera >>
-- Hey thanks everyone. Well I found a website with it's own message board finally for this, but it is pretty much for anyone with gastro problems that wish to go there, so I have to search to get my answers, but at least it's there.
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