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Re: Need advice re Ovcon, Synthroid, and Wellbutrin THYROID STUFFFrom: Sunny (anonymous@obgyn.net)Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:22:54 -0600 (CST)
At Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Sally wrote: > >Hi, > >If you have been "Depressed" don't underestimate the effect of thyroid. >Even "subclinical" hypothyroid. It really does affect every body >system. Depression is a major symptom of thryoid, as is lack of energy, >irregular periods, etc. etc.... added to the PCOS. Feeling better 4 >weeks after startin the synthyroid sounds diagnostic to me. > >My story. Several Drs. blood tested for thyroid cause I said I was >feeling so bad. Results were within normal limits (highest was about >4.8) 'Normal" is .5 - 5.5. So they said I was fine and nothing wrong. >For 18 months I was feeling like death warmed up (and actually wished I >was dead) - finally diagnosed with PCOS about 4 months ago and >hypothroid (due to enlarged thyroid and Dr. said 4.5 was high) just >after and with treatment began to feel marginally better. In Nov the dr >upped the dose of thryoid drug (they start at the lowesst dose and work >up till they get a good response) and four weeks later VOILA - really it >was like that - I feel a completely new woman. No more fatigue (unless >I don't sleep enough), no more feeling like I had lead in my veins, >greatly improvied exercise endurance, stopped being cold all the time, >and the I was able to stop taking drugs for the severe gastritis that >had plagued me for 18 months. I can't believe I was feeling so bad for >something that was completely treatable. And I can't help but wonder >how many other women are in the same boat! > >In short, give the thryoid meds a chance. Don't be ashamed to take >drugs for depression if that is required (though i can talk!) because >depression is chemical - not your fault. Take care. > >-- >sally > >At Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Kimberly wrote: >> >>Karin - >> >>Depression is nothing to be embarrassed about. Really. It's mostly >>chemical and it's not your fault. I was, as I said before, completely >>shocked by how much the Wellbutrin helped with smoking. I know I was >>addicted from the very first cigarette I ever smoked - and smoked for >>ten years, two packs a day. I always felt unusual in my dependence upon >>them, it was really extreme. Anyway, I quit when I found I was pregnant >>(wow was that ever diffucult!) So when I happened upon a half full pack >>of cigarettes 2 years after quitting I thought it was my luck day, as >>I'd been thinking of them every single day during those two years. From >>the first one I was hooked again. Unbeleivably hooked. I starated and >>quit at least 6 times, each time being unbearably painful. I was so mad >>at myself but I really couldn't understand why I couldn't get them off >>my mind. I'd seen a show about cocaine addicts and how when given a >>brain scan a certain part of their brain is not functioning properly >>thereby making cocaine more addictive- I felt deeply that my brain too >>was missing something. Anyway, I was at my wits end and decided to just >>give Wellbutrin a chance because I literally knew that if I didn't get >>help I wasn't gonna be able to quit again. Anyway, after 1 week of >>Wellbutrin, when I smoked it did NOTHING for me. NOTHING. It tasted >>bad and I hated it. After 2 weeks I couldn't stand smoking anymore, >>wore the patch for 2 days and that was it. Almost painless. Well, my >>point is just that this experience really showed me how much we are not >>necessarily in control of our minds - and if they are not getting the >>chemicals they need we can choose to suffer the consequences, or accept >>that we would be better helped by a medication that helps the brain work >>properly. So, if you feel poorly after going off the Wellbutrin please >>please don't be ashamed that it helped you the first time around, and >>for Pete's sake don't suffer for no reason. I would say having two >>medical conditions which can both cause depression (pcos and thyroid) >>should give you the courage to take yourself off the hook. (and you say >>you ramble! ha :) >> >>Were you diagnosed with PCOS with a 2 or 3 hour glucose tolerance test >>and related horomone levels? That would be the only way you really know >>if you actually have PCOS or how serious it is. I say this because >>there are plenty of women who are not overweight who have this. Also, >>if you have lighter hair and skin it would be rare to have any excess >>hair growth - not impossible, but rare. There are also many women who >>don't suffer acne. I myself have hardly any body or facial hair at all, >>let alone excess hair. I also usually only suffer one or two blemishes >>at a time, and bad skin runs in my family , so I can guess that if I >>came from stock with better skin there's a good chance I wouldn't have >>any acne at all. also it is important to know that many many women with >>PCOS do not have unusual blood sugar/glucose levels at all. The have >>elevated INSULIN levels which can only be diagnosed through a glucose >>tolerence test. Due to the fact that the pancreas is still functioning >>well enough to control the blood sugars, the blood sugars are normal - >>but again at a very large cost to the pancreas. >> >>If you haven't had the G.T.test I would ask your dr. about it so at >>least you know what kind, if any, risk you have for diabetes and heart >>disease in the future. Since you aren't suffering many symptoms it >>would just be nice to know what is really going on in your body. >>Unfortunately many dr.s think that blood sugars are always off with PCOS >>and therefore do not properly test for insulin levels. My general dr. >>ALWAYS tests my glucose - and I tell him that's not my problem but I can >>tell he just thinks I'm crazy. (yeah, I should switch dr.s, but I >>really don't have to see him often.) >> >>I'm somewhat embarrased to say that since I've been on the Glucophage >>I'm not really very diligent about controlling my carbs. I try not to >>eat a lot of sugar, but I have an incredibly demanding sweet tooth, >>which tends to get the best of me after every meal. :( I can say I'm >>eating MUCH less sugar than I used to, which I guess is a good start. >>Right now I'm following a lower fat/ lower calorie diet and trying to >>avoid large amounts of processed sugar. (and since starting the >>Glucophage I have far less actual need for sugar.) I am trying to come >>up with some kind of diet plan that will be more geared to my specific >>issues, but since starting the Wellbutrin there are a lot (most >>actually) foods that taste weird to me. Except sweet or bland ones. And >>when I say weird, I mean wierd. Like some days everything tastes like >>fish, and another everything is bitter. Anyway...now that the holidays >>are over I really do want to get a better plan down. I would think >>somewhere between 100 and 200 carbs per day would be appropriate to ease >>up the workload of the pancreas - and hope to shoot for that soon. Yes, >>I believe protein is very important and try to include a good source >>with every meal. I don't count protein grams or anything like that. >>Everyone has such a different opinion so I don't really think ANYONE >>knows what is best. But whole grains, beans, fish and veggies are >>indisputibly healthy, so I guess that's what we should be eating! :) >> >>I am proud to say I have a pretty good exercise routine down, so I'm not >>failing totally with my lofty goals! I weight train and do some kind of >>cardio at least 5-6 days a week. I'm not a particularly sporty person >>(more artsy by far) but I enjoy the workouts now that I'm in the habit. >>I hope they are helping me out where the Glucophage is not - mainly in >>the triglyceride area. >> >>Well, I've gone on long enough once again. All I have left to say is >>that if you have the Glucose Tolerence test (or full result copies if >>you have had one)you will know a lot better how much you may need to >>change lifestyle-wise. I would hate to see you get overly concerned and >>nervous now if you don't really have much of a problem - or have problem >>that could be controlled with exercise or slight moderation of diet >>alone. >> >>cheerio! Kimberly. >> >>At Mon, 7 Jan 2002, anonymous wrote: >>> >>>Kimberly >>> >>>Thanks again for the info ... I certainly hope you are right that >>>depression can be cured. Part of me is embarrassed to be diagnosed with >>>dysthymia (mild depression), but part of me thinks it could be accurate. >>>Aside from low iron, my blood tests are normal, but iron supplements >>>never helped my energy (I stopped taking them), so by process of >>>elimination, depression seems a reasonable explanation for my blah/moody >>>feeling and lack of energy. It wasn't until my RE checked thyroid >>>antibodies, that the idea of lack of energy due to hypothyroidism came >>>into play. >>> >>>I agree with you ... I am starting to think the the headaches are due >>>to the Ovcon. If and when I drop the Wellbutrin, I'll know more. >>> >>>I do get confused by all of the research I read. I consider my PCOS >>>mild because I definitely have headaches, cysts and irregular periods, >>>but I'm only about 10-15 pounds more than I'd like, I've never had >>>problems with excessive hair, and acne has not been a big problem. My >>>goal is simply to feel 100%. I've taken bcps for so long because not >>>taking any medication and therefore not getting a period seems dangerous >>>to me. I reasoned that it least bcps tried to keep things in some sort >>>of cycle, even it's not a cure.. The bcps that I avoid are the >>>tri-phasics. I was on them for several years. Then, I read on one of >>>these PCOS discussion boards that tri-phasic bcps are bad for PCOS, and >>>that is what really prompted me to switch doctors. My old gyn took it >>>as a personal insult to his medical knowledge that I didn't think I was >>>on the right medication. So, I concluded that he didn't care about my >>>needs. The RE that I am going to now at least seems to be more >>>scientific. Right away, she agreed that tri-phasic bcps were wrong for >>>me. But taking no bcps for awhile and then taking OrthoCylen for awhile >>>caused my cysts to come back and caused breakthrough bleeding. So, now >>>she prescribed the Ovcon 50, which is alleviating the cysts, but I don't >>>like how I feel otherwise. In retrospect, it was a bad idea to start >>>the Ovcon and Synthroid at the same time ... not that there is a >>>conflict, but it was two new things for me to get used to. >>> >>>Anyway, I tend to ramble. As far as I know, my blood sugar levels are >>>normal. So, I haven't paid much attention to Glucophage or a low carb >>>diet. But, your points are well taken and I need to motivate myself to >>>really give the low-carb/exercise a try at least until I see the RE >>>again at the end of February. How many carbs do you limit yourself to >>>each day? Over the last couple of days, I've been shocked how many carbs >>>are in everday foods. Do you emphasize proteins instead? How many? >>> >>>Again, thanks for your help. Take care. >>> >>>Karin >>> >>>At Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Kimberly wrote: >>>> >>>>Karin - I'm glad I gave you a few things to think about - but it's all >>>>more clear now that you've clarified a bit. >>>> >>>>If you've been on the WEllbutrin for 8 months, I see no reason to not >>>>stop whenever you want (although find out if you need to taper off of >>>>course! :). My dr. said 6 months was the treatment for depression. I >>>>was suprised to discover that a 6 month treatment can actually CURE some >>>>people's depression and it is not necessary to take it all their lives. >>>>Anyway, it sounds as if you weren't even sure if you WERE depressed, so >>>>it would most cetainly be interesting to find out how you feel without >>>>it. >>>> >>>>I would not attribute the headaches to have anything to do with the >>>>Wellbutrin. I also have never seen any indication that synthroid causes >>>>headaches. but i may be wrong. The Ovcon seems highly suspect, but >>>>then again it could simply be stress from the holidays! Or an ongoing >>>>low-grade sinus infection, or... >>>> >>>>Well, it you've been on the synthroid for four weeks and just started >>>>getting energy it sounds as if it really could be responsible. And >>>>that's so great! Hypothyroidism can affect such a huge amount of body >>>>functions that it's amazing. I think it WOULD be a good idea to go off >>>>the Wellbutrin and see what happens with your energy level and emotions. >>>>It would probably be a good idea to write down exactly how you are >>>>feeling every now and then because sometimes things change with >>>>medication so subtly it is hard to remember how we used to feel. It >>>>really sounds to me like you probably are not too depressed, because if >>>>you would have been you would have been likely to know it. The thyroid >>>>problem slows down every function to the point that even if you are not >>>>depressed, you wouldn't feel the OPPOSITE of depressed, whatever that >>>>is! :) >>>>I wouldn't really worry about it too much and would just focus on the >>>>synthroid for now. If you feel bad or low on energy in the future, go >>>>ahead and deal with it then. >>>> >>>>I think I used the wrong terminology when I was discussing mild and >>>>serious PCOS. I used those terms because you said your case was mild - >>>>and yet I'm not sure if there is really much distinction between mild >>>>and serious. I think there is only the way one's body responds to the >>>>'malfunction'. I was talking more about insulin resistance, and that if >>>>your case is 'mild' or not - you are still most likely insulin resistant >>>>and therefor need to seek treatment because your chance of diabetes is >>>>huge - and also your risk of heart disease and stroke goes up quite a >>>>few notches. But I was not directly speaking of the symptoms of PCOS - >>>>because I don't honestly know if they get worse with age or lack of >>>>treatment. My guess is that everyone is different. >>>> >>>>Birth control pills are not treatment for PCOS. They do nothing to help >>>>correct most of the symptoms (except giving you a timely period - and >>>>the PCOS directed ones that I mentioned can help with acne and hair)- >>>>and as I also said they often times make the condition worse. Most dr.s >>>>who focus primarily on PCOS do not suggest BCP's unless the patient >>>>really wants to prevent pregnancy. >>>> >>>>I don't know how much you know about insulin resistance - but quite >>>>simply over a long period of time of being insulin resistant, the >>>>pancreas simply cannot work any longer because it has been pumping out >>>>more than it's fair share of insulin for most of it's life. This is >>>>what causes diabetes II. BCP's make insulin resistance worse, therefore >>>>causing the pancreas to work even harder than it would without them. >>>>That is why it really is a personal decision - but it's nice to know >>>>what you are deciding about. I was not aware that BCP's made it worse >>>>until recently - and I was pretty suprised, but all the evidence I've >>>>found has totally pointed in that direction as well. (such as diabetics >>>>shouldn't take them!) >>>> >>>>If you are not taking them to avoid pregnancy - I would really suggest >>>>that you consider talking to your dr. about insulin sensitizers >>>>(Glucophage being the most popular, Actos and Avandia being less popular >>>>but quite effective when Glucophage side effects cause too much >>>>trouble). These alone could regulate your periods, control your >>>>insulin/blood sugar levels therefore giving you more energy, and quite >>>>possibly help a whole bunch with your cyst discomfort. (Sorry, but I >>>>know little about the cysts, as I think it is only a small percentage of >>>>women who actually have trouble or discomfort with the cysts - and I'm >>>>not one of them, so really I don't know - but you might want to ask some >>>>women on the PCOS support board if they have had any luck with that when >>>>they are treated for I.resistance. - I recommend that page because it's >>>>more active) The meds can also help with whatever other side effects you >>>>may be having - some of which you might be so used to you're not even >>>>aware of them. >>>> >>>>The other option is the low-carb diet (which forgoes the whole insulin >>>>process altogether so that the pancreas is never stressed and the >>>>horomones that are messed up because of it go back to normal) and >>>>regular excercise (which makes the cells accept the insulin better to >>>>begin with so that once again the pancreas doesn't have to work so >>>>hard). When I first found out about my PCOS I went low-carb and had 3 >>>>regular periods for the first time in my life (right off the bat) and >>>>got pregnant (unexpectedly!) thereafter. My skin cleared up and I felt >>>>so wonderful I was shocked that I had ever felt so bad. But then after >>>>I had my baby the low-carb diet did nothing for me at all. But that >>>>could have been the thyroid problem I developed from the pregnancy. Just >>>>another one of those things I'm sure I'll never understand! Now that I'm >>>>on Glucophage (and synthroid)I've lost 40lbs and my skin is almost >>>>perfect - I have very few cravings and I all around feel better than I >>>>have in a long time. >>>>Quite simply, BCP's just can't do much for you when it comes to >>>>correcting the imbalances in your body. That is why I was suprised when >>>>you seem to be really looking to feel better but that your dr. hadn't >>>>put you on anything to help the PCOS. Also, if you really want to be on >>>>the BCP's I would really recommend asking your dr. about Jasmin. It >>>>blocks the androgens your body is making and is the only BCP available >>>>that does so - and it just came out last year, so perhaps your dr. isn't >>>>too used to thinking about it. At least if you block the androgens it >>>>helps a little bit more than the average pill. >>>> >>>>Gee, I'm probably confusing you now. I'm really sorry if I am - but >>>>I've been learning about PCOS for so long and watching how dr.s and >>>>women are slowly but surely learning more and more about it - yet so >>>>many dr.s really aren't up to date - and the woman patient is really >>>>suffering because of it. It just frustrates me that women can suffer >>>>and suffer when there actually IS treatment available (i.e. any >>>>treatment plan that involves controlling insulin resistance). I would >>>>love to see your ovarian pain go away - but on your current treatment >>>>plan I don't see that there is really much hope of getting regular >>>>periods that are normal or seeing the cysts go away or lessen. I just >>>>want to share any info I can that will help anyone feel better, so if I >>>>have just made you confused with your meds even more I'm sorry, but I >>>>hope in the end maybe you can get treatment that will really help you >>>>and prevent further disease in the future. >>>> >>>>Anyway - the whole point of that tirade is that I don't necessarily >>>>think your PCOS is getting worse, because I don't know if the condition >>>>as a rule does get worse per say. And I didn't mean to mislead you - >>>>but even if your PCOS isn't getting worse, not being treated for insulin >>>>resistance can only be bad - and that CAN get worse. Quite simply, >>>>insulin control is the ONLY treatment for PCOS (at the moment) - and if >>>>your cysts and irregular periods are being caused by the PCOS you might >>>>want to look into it. >>>> >>>>That's all I can think of! :) >>>>
-- Hello,
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