Re: George Tiller
From: Andrew Folley (agfolley@hotmail.com)
Tue Jun 9 12:51:07 2009
On the contrary Rich and El these arguments are not necessarily religious ones nor are they antifeminist. There is no evidence to suggest that Mr. Roeder who murdered Dr. Tiller was either one. He apparently felt that is was morally wrong to kill someone. Apparently atheists also have a sense of moral right and wrong?? Another rational argument is what is "previable". How many c-sections have you done for a 23 week baby when mom "wanted everything done"? Certainly discussions on abortion are pertinent for OB-Gyns and others who deliver health care to women.
> on 6/9/09 4:31 PM Richard D. Kaplan said the following:
> > Would it make any difference for anyone to know that it was never
> > any more "legal" to kill Jews in Nazi Germany than it was to "torture"
> > suspected terrorists in the United States? The Nuremberg Laws passed by
> > the Nazi government took away the Jews' rights to German citizenship
> > and all of their civil rights. There were never any laws passed to
> > legalize their extermination. This was all done by the Nazis
> > "illegally". The Nazis did pass a law, however, which conferred the
> > death penalty on anyone who participated in an abortion, which some (not
> > I) would say demonstrated their concern about the "sanctity of life".
> > I do agree with El that the only arguments against allowing a women
> > the right to electively terminate her pre-viable pregnancy are religious
> > and/or anti feminist and therefore are not really open to rational
> > discussion.
> >
> > Richard Kaplan
> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Andrew Folley <mailto:agfolley@hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L
> > <mailto:ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > *Sent:* Monday, June 08, 2009 2:04 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: George Tiller
> >
> > So rick what you are saying is that the State sanctioned
> > extermination of the millions of innocent men women and children in
> > Germany, Russia and Cambodia is fine and not something we should
> > object to or be outraged by as long as it is legal??? "Moral issues
> > are left to individuals"???? What happens if the 1 million unborn
> > babies cant make their "individual" argument for life? What are
> > the implications for a society that turns its back on the
> > termination of 1 million innocent lives every year. As physicians
> > when we begin to devalue the sanctity of life we are crossing a line
> > of playing God. If physicians dont look out for the value of life,
> > who argues with the "State" when politicians decide that health care
> > is too expensive to save babies with birth defects, Downs, elderly
> > with teminal diseases etc. PS these philosophical conversations are
> > nothing new. They were being held in Germany in the mid 1930's.
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Mon=2C 8 Jun 2009 09:37:12 -0500
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: rchudacoff@mylinuxisp.com
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net
> > Subject: Re: George Tiller
> >
> > EXACTLY....murder is defined legally...moral issues are left to the
> > individuals
> > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > *From*: Andrew Folley
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > *Date*: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:59:48 -0500
> > *To*: Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L<ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > *Subject*: RE: George Tiller
> >
> > I will, IF you will ask Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin?
> > What gave us the right to prosecute "German war criminals" for
> > following orders and obiding by the State sanctioned extemination of
> > Jews, gypsies, gays and the infirmed?? After all
> > murder is only murder if it is defined by law, right?
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Fri=2C 5 Jun 2009 18:27:46 -0500
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: rchudacoff@mylinuxisp.com
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net
> > Subject: Re: George Tiller
> >
> > Ask the governor of Texas Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > *From*: Andrew Folley
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > *Date*: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:43:57 -0500
> > *To*: Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L<ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > *Subject*: RE: George Tiller
> >
> > That suggests that "murder" is only a legal matter and not a moral one?
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Fri=2C 5 Jun 2009 13:29:36 -0500
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > From: rchudacoff@mylinuxisp.com
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net
> > Subject: RE: George Tiller
> >
> > Only if he continued AFTER the law was passed, I would assume
> >
> > Richard Chudacoff, MD, FACOG
> >
> > *From:* ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net [mailto:ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net] *On Behalf Of
> > *Andrew Folley
> > *Sent:* Friday, June 05, 2009 11:24 AM
> > *To:* Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L
> > *Subject:* RE: George Tiller
> >
> > It is my understanding that Dr Tiller was an extremely nice, loving,
> > compassionate man.
> > He had a passion to do what he felt was best for women but
> > unfortunately misplaced that passion above the simple laws of
> > respect for the dignity and sanctify of life. It is interesting to
> > ponder if the State laws on abortion were to be overturned this
> > year, would physicians such as Tiller and Hern be considered
> > murderers???
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:38:21 -0500
> > From: rd.braun@gmail.com
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net
> > Subject: Re: George Tiller
> >
> > That he was also a "Christian Physician".
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Andrew Folley <agfolley@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:agfolley@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I find that very interesting as well but what is your point???
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:24:49 -0500
> > From: rd.braun@gmail.com <mailto:rd.braun@gmail.com>
> >
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> >
> > Subject: Re: George Tiller
> >
> > Andy,
> >
> > I find it interesting that he was murdered while attending a
> > Christian Church of which he was a member.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Andrew Folley <agfolley@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:agfolley@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Rick I was going to let your rant slide but it is time for lunch
> > and I thought perhaps I could address some of your inappropriate
> > comments. Unless anyone else is really interested in my
> > rebuttle of Ricks charges I would simply delete and go
> > forth. There is nothing wrong with a healthy discussion and
> > argument on a subject such as late term abortion if it the
> > argument is carried out by "playing fairly" and not trying to
> > intentionally be inflammatory. I have listed your comments rick
> > in italics and my response in bold type:
> >
> > /Seems like ‘you people’ love sticking your noses in others
> > business, without offering any kind of solution: typical let’s
> > fix blame rather than fix problems rhetoric from the ‘religious
> > righteous’. /
> >
> > *You have incorrectly assumed that late term abortions on babies
> > from 20-30 weeks gestation is not my business. As a physician
> > and women's health care provider it is every bit as much my
> > business as yours.Speaking on behalf of Christians like myself I
> > would say that we do not wish to blame individuals. there is
> > certainly a problem with a healh care and societal sytem that
> > does 1 million abortions every year. We are looking for
> > solutions to this problem. One very simple solution is making
> > adoptions more readily available. Most late term abortions are
> > still for maternal convenience rather than fetal anomalies or
> > maternal health issues.*
> >
> > I/ have a great idea: why don’t ‘you people’ put your money
> > where your noses are: Offer personal assistance to any women who
> > gets pregnant and cannot afford to keep the pregnancy (for
> > emotional, financial or non-viability reason/).
> >
> > *Not necessarily a fair request but in fact many Christian
> > physicians such as myself do "put our money where or mouth is by
> > taking care of women without charge for those who do not have
> > insurance*.
> >
> > /‘You people’ can take all the financial burden of raising
> > these children, pay for the psychological injury that comes from
> > forcing others to do something that is demanded on them by ‘you
> > people,’ /
> >
> > /*I */*suspect that there would be enough couples in the US who
> > desire to have children that all of these unwanted babies would
> > easily be adopted out. Thus no "burden" for rasing the
> > children. The psychological injury to women more often than not
> > comes form the emotional trauma of knowing that they were
> > directly involved in the killing of the little life inside of
> > them and usually done for selfish reasons*.
> >
> > /and any other financial, emotional or societal costs that comes
> > from the repercussions of ‘your peoples’ unsolicited sticking
> > your noses where they don’t belong/
> > / /
> >
> > *Again, 1 million abortions every year for the past 40 years is
> > a problem that deserves all of our attention and does not
> > require anyones solicitation*/. /
> >
> > /Fix the problem, Andrew, not the blame and perhaps you might
> > generate some respect from this list/,
> >
> > *Many organizations are working to fix the problem rick. I am
> > the medical director of the Crisis Pregnancy Center in Toledo
> > and personally provide free ultrasounds and counseling to women
> > who are in a postion of unwanted pregnancy. We address
> > financial concerns by helping get them insurance and WIC etc.
> > We work with adoption agencies, discuss abstinence and even pray
> > with patients. We offer mentoring of mothers and support groups
> > for women coping with the emotional trauma of having had an
> > abortion. As far as respect from the list goes, again you are
> > assuming on behalf of the listers that they do not respect my
> > opinion. I am not sure that is an accurate statement? *
> >
> > /rather than sounding like the bigoted monster you come across
> > as when you make statements condoning the killing of a respected
> > colleague/
> >
> > I* do not recall making any statements condoning the killing of
> > Dr. Tiller. As stated I, nor would any true Christians, ever
> > condone such an act. "Respect" is in the eye of the
> > beholder. The fact that you respect him does not mean that he is
> > a "respected colleague". He was a colleague but personally I
> > did not respect the man based on his work. I do not know him but
> > I do feel bad for the loss to his family.*
> >
> > *Your bigoted monster comment is just plain "off the wall" and I
> > have no idea how to address it.*
> >
> > *PS Keep in mind your rant was based strictly on my quote from
> > the Cliffhanger movie: "Kill one person and your a murderer,
> > kill htousands and youre a hero, go figure"*
> > * Like it or not, unfortunately, it really does apply very well
> > in this situation. Andy*
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:33:03 -0500
> >
> > From: agfolley@hotmail.com <mailto:agfolley@hotmail.com>
> >
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > Subject: RE: George Tiller
> >
> > Seems a little bit of an extreme and inappropriate "over the top
> > comment" for a fellow colleague. ("you people", "bigoted
> > monster" ???) I do not take it personally Rick but do understand
> > the very sensitive nature of this issue.I would hope you would
> > at least show a modicom of respect for my opinion as I do for
> > yours I think you may have reacted without having all the
> > facts. I certainly would never condone the vigilante killing of
> > any person innocent or guilty of a capital crime. That falls
> > within the realm of the state. There is no justification what
> > so ever for this cowardly murderous act. No true Christian
> > would condone or support such an act.
> >
> > At the same time, in my opinion as a Christian physician (sorry
> > but I can not separate who I am from what I do) there is no
> > justification for abortion from a biblical or medical perspective.
> >
> > As physicians I thought we were committed to "doing no harm".
> > As a Christian physician I am committed to not taking the life
> > of an innocent child. It is hard to justify abortions on a 22-24
> > week fetus as not an innocent life no matter how you work it.
> > In my opinion Tiller was a murderer in every sense of the
> > word. Legally he had every right to do what he was doing.
> >
> > I am not interested in inflammatory words or meaningless
> > argument. Please be aware however, that not all of your
> > colleagues on this list and not all of us in ACOG share the same
> > beliefs as you espouse, Rick.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >
> > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:34:17 -0500
> > From: rchudacoff@mylinuxisp.com
> > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > Subject: RE: George Tiller
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > You are a pretty compassionate person..not
> >
> > Seems like /‘you people’/ love sticking your noses in others
> > business, without offering any kind of solution: typical let’s
> > fix blame rather than fix problems rhetoric from the ‘/religious
> > righteous’/. I have a great idea: why don’t /‘you people’ /put
> > your money where your noses are: Offer personal assistance to
> > any women who gets pregnant and cannot afford to keep the
> > pregnancy (for emotional, financial or non-viability reason).
> > /‘You people’ /can take all the financial burden of raising
> > these children, pay for the psychological injury that comes from
> > forcing others to do something that is demanded on them by /‘you
> > people,’/ and any other financial, emotional or societal costs
> > that comes from the repercussions of /‘your peoples’/
> > unsolicited sticking your noses where they don’t belong.
> >
> > Fix the problem, Andrew, not the blame and perhaps you might
> > generate some respect from this list, rather than sounding like
> > the bigoted monster you come across as when you make statements
> > condoning the killing of a respected colleague.
> >
> > Now, let the flame war begin.
> >
> > Richard Chudacoff, MD, FACOG
> >
> > *From:* ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net>
> > [mailto:ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net>] *On
> > Behalf Of *Andrew Folley
> > *Sent:* Monday, June 01, 2009 7:19 AM
> > *To:* Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L
> > *Subject:* RE: George Tiller
> >
> > "Kill one person and you are a murderer kill thousands and you
> > are a hero, go figure"
> > Eric Qualen (bad guy in Cliffhanger)
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 31 May
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:40:29 -0500
> > > From: zygote@icsi.net <mailto:zygote@icsi.net>
> > > To: ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net <mailto:ob-gyn-l@mail.obgyn.net>
> > > Subject: Re: George Tiller
> > >
> > > Joanne, Thanks for your words. Our 1st amendment allows us to vary
> > > with each other peacefully, and not our 2nd amendment to do so
> > with
> > > violence. I hope some good will come out of George's death.
> > >
> > > Shalom!
> > >
> > > On May 31, 2009, at 8:34 PM, Joanne Bulley, MD wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for changing the subject line. There must me no room for
> > > > pre-meditated murder of medical providers - whether one
> > agrees with
> > > > their practice or not.
> > > >
> > > > While I am pro-choice (may the need be few and far between),
> > I am not
> > > > for capital punishment - just life without parole. But if the
> > state
> > > > has
> > > > ca[pital punishment ... then let the state prosecute to the
> > fullest
> > > > extent.
> > > >
> > > > I would guess that this was most definitely pre-meditated.
> > > >
> > > > Guess that would make me prejudiced and unable to sit on the
> > jury
> > > > also.
> > > > My kids father was born in Kansas and his parents were
> > Kansans for
> > > > many
> > > > many years.
> > > >
> > > > De. Bernard Slepian's niece is the librarian and our hospital
> > and a
> > > > neighboring smaller hospital. (Buffalo, NY abortion provider).
> > > >
> > > > Joanne
> > > >
> > > > At Sun, 31 May 2009, Robert J. Carpenter, Jr. MD wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Joe,
> > > >>
> > > >> Whatever one wants to call it - it was premeditated murder, and
> > > >> subject to the death penalty which I advocate! The only
> > problem with
> > > >> capital murder cases is the $1 million that it takes to
> > execute the
> > > >> offender/s.
> > > >>
> > > >> Hopefully, Kansas law enforcement will not be prejudiced against
> > > >> prosecuting the offender!
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe I can become a Kansas citizen, and sit on the jury.
> > However, I
> > > >> would not be able to say that I would be impartial if the
> > evidence
> > > >> convicts the perp.
> > > >>
> > > >> Bob
> > > >>
> > > >> I changed the thread name since George needs to be more than
> > "more
> > > >> violence"
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Joanne Bulley, MD
> > > > solo gyn
> > > > Keene, NH
> > > >
> > > > Final mock-up or toile for my daughter's wedding dress
> > finished this
> > > > AM
> > > > Sent off to her to try on and make changes before I cut the silk.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
> > <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
> > <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009>
> >
> > --
> > R. Daniel Braun, MD FACOG(L) ABMP CMTh #20900069
> > Professor Emeritus
> > Dept. of Obstetrics and Gynecology
> > Indiana U. School of Medicine
> >
> > R. Daniel Braun
> >
> > “Science without Religion is LAME; Religion without Science is
> > BLIND"
> > Einstein 1941
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
> > <http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290>
> >
> > --
> > R. Daniel Braun, MD FACOG(L) ABMP CMTh #20900069
> > Professor Emeritus
> > Dept. of Obstetrics and Gynecology
> > Indiana U. School of Medicine
> >
> > R. Daniel Braun
> >
> > “Science without Religion is LAME; Religion without Science is
> > BLIND"
> > Einstein 1941
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >=20
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> > <http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009>
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> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > <http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar)
> el@lisse.NA el108-ARIN / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
> PO Box 8421 \ / Please do NOT email to this address
> Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ if it is DNS related in ANY way
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