Re: OB: Stuart Campbell Op Ed
From: Efrain Ramirez (eramirezt@coqui.net)
Sat Oct 7 14:15:11 2006
Andrew..right and wrong are not absolutes..we as physicians must be
courageous to accept other people’s beliefs so we can help them …
accusing a patient of murderer when seeking termination is the least
that patient needs…. denying treatment because you think is morally
wrong is ... well…. wrong? Have a nice day! ..
Ef
At Thu, 05 Oct 2006, Andrew Folley wrote:
>
>I think as physicians we have to be judgemental. Is abortion right or
>wrong? Are their absolute truths and values in the world or is everything
>"relative"?. Ie is abortion relatiev to thesociety one lives in or to the
>time in which one is living? As OB-Gyns we have a problem as most of us
>belong to ACOG and our organization has not come out against abortion. We
>have failed women and children and society by not saying no to the 1.6
>million murders commited each year by our fellow physicians.
>More of us need to be judgemental.
>"Do no harm"
>andrew
>
>>From: eramirezt@coqui.net (Efrain Ramirez)
>>Reply-To: ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net
>>To: Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L <ob-gyn-l@dns.obgyn.net>
>>Subject: Re: OB: Stuart Campbell Op Ed
>>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 06:22:42 -0500
>>
>>Excellent editorial .. abortion issues are very personal - unique for
>>every individual and circumstances - with profound repercusions....both
>>to the patient and to society.. I as a physician can not be judgemental
>>but again .. just my opinion..
>>
>>Ef
>>
>> >Wed, 4 Oct 2006, art fougner, md wrote:
>> >
>> >X-Posted from the Ultrasound List ( Flame - Retardant Hazmat Suit in
>> >place )...
>> >
>> >Don't tear a smiling foetus from the womb
>> >
>> >By Professor Stuart Campbell (Filed: 04/10/2006)
>> >
>> >There is something deeply moving about the image of a baby cocooned
>> >inside the womb. When four-dimensional scans first became available
>> >three years ago, I sat with parents who trembled at the sight of their
>> >soon-to-be newborn. They told me they wanted to stroke its downy head.
>> >
>> >Advanced scanning means we have a window on the secret life of foetuses.
>> >At 11 weeks we can see them yawn, and even take steps. At 22 weeks,
>> >they begin to open their eyes.
>> >
>> >Between 20 and 24 weeks we watch as they seem to cry, smile and frown.
>> >Understandably, these incredible images have influenced the debate on
>> >abortion. I pioneered the 4-D scanning technique in the UK and it has
>> >certainly caused me to question my own opinions.
>> >
>> >I now believe the maximum age for abortion should be cut to 18 weeks so
>> >we do not abort foetuses who exhibit the signs of humanity these images
>> >portray. Of course, I have been accused of "sentimentality". Maybe
>> >this is right, but I defy anyone to see these pictures and not pause to
>> >wonder if they might be wrong.
>> >
>> >With the 1967 Abortion Act, terminations could be performed up to 28
>> >weeks for "social" abortions. In 1990, the law was changed to 24 weeks.
>> >At that time, a baby born at 23 weeks had less than a 10 per cent chance
>> >of survival. Now, it has a 66 per cent chance and we must change the
>> >law again.
>> >
>> >My most vocal critics, Dr Donald Peebles at University College, London,
>> >and Dr Huseyin Mehmet at Imperial College, London, claim that these
>> >facial expressions are developmental reflexes. They are defending the
>> >abortion law as it stands.
>> >
>> >But I am equally keen to protect a woman's right to choose. I've
>> >watched women die from the after-effects of backstreet abortions. But
>> >we have to draw the line somewhere and 24 weeks is too late.
>> >
>> >Pain is a very difficult thing to measure in an unborn baby. Foetuses
>> >have no memory of pain, and no anticipation of it. But if you stuck a
>> >pin into a foetus, I believe it would make a crying face and flinch.
>> >Clearly, that's an experiment we can't carry out, but we can weigh up
>> >the evidence we have and make the best judgment possible.
>> >
>> >Babies born at 22 weeks are never treated without analgesics. Why, if
>> >there is scientific evidence to prove their brains are too
>> >under-developed to feel pain or distress, would they be given medication
>> >to protect them from pain? And if we accept that these babies may feel
>> >pain, why is it so difficult to imagine they would feel the same
>> >sensation inside the womb?
>> >
>> >I know if I gently push a baby in the womb at 28 weeks, it will make a
>> >crying face because it has been disturbed. How can we tell so precisely
>> >the point at which these expressions stop being simple reflexes and
>> >start to mean something?
>> >
>> >And even if they can't feel pain, they can certainly survive outside the
>> >womb. A study at University College Hospital found that 72 per cent of
>> >babies born at 24 weeks survive. Another study in Minneapolis between
>> >1996 and 2000 reported that at 23 weeks, 66 per cent survive and, though
>> >they may suffer serious medical complications, 30 per cent of babies
>> >born at 22 weeks will live.
>> >
>> >Those casting doubt on whether a smile is really a smile are, in my
>> >opinion, defending the indefensible. If a baby has reached a stage
>> >where it could survive in a neo-natal unit, then the pregnancy shouldn't
>> >be terminated for social reasons.
>> >
>> >And we must focus on terminations for social reasons if we are talking
>> >about amending the law. There are 1,200 terminations a year between 22
>> >and 24 weeks, 70 per cent of which are for non-medical reasons.
>> >
>> >We must grasp the nettle now. These are healthy babies, not brain-dead,
>> >feelingless creatures. When I see a foetus that can smile at me, I know
>> >absolutely that we should not tear it from the womb.
>> >
>> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/10/04/do0403.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/10/04/ixopinion.html
>> >
>> >For any Listers or Lurkers unfamiliar with Stuart Campbell, please look
>> >here ...
>> >
>> >http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/campbell.html
>> >
>> >Respectfully posted to generate discussion ...
>> >
>> >Art
>> >
>> >--
>> >art fougner, md
>> >"May The Wings of Liberty Never Lose a Feather." - Jack Burton
>> >
>>
>>--
>>“ The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance,
>>it is the illusion of knowledge.” Daniel J. Boorstin - Historian
>
--
“ The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance,
it is the illusion of knowledge.” Daniel J. Boorstin - Historian
