Re: choices
From: Charlie Chambers (cchamber@gorge.net)
Fri Mar 19 14:18:07 2004
Basically, the case in Salt Lake was very unusual. No one was
guaranteeing anything except that the babies needed to be delivered.
And the interpretation of the tracing was rather obvious. Who knows
what the outcome would have been if the kids were delivered by
cesarean, perhaps significantly impaired. But, the parties involved
(and they were multiple) were uniformly of the opinion that the tracing
was terminal. You must agree that there are the rare tracings where
clearly the placenta is failing quite obviously.
I love to hear every viewpoint, contradictory or not. I'm not close
minded enough to believe that I don't have a lot to learn about this
profession. And I don't like rude comments from either side of the
aisle. I was simply suggesting perhaps a more civil approach for you
and for the rest of the participants. If you want to get a rather
inflammatory reaction on this list, it's rather simple to do. If you
want to have a civil discourse, then why not let it start with you? I
think all of us have been guilty in the past of being rude to others
within the profession, but it doesn't justify perpetuating the insults.
Anyway, say what you will. It was only just a suggestion.
On Mar 19, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Kipperkid wrote:
> The question still remains though...if the trace was terminal can we
> be sure that C/S would have resulted in a live baby? I simply do not
> believe that "anyone" could (or should) guarantee this woman (or any
> woman) a healthy baby. To make this kind of guarantee opens the way
> for litigation of the sort the members of this list seem to have an
> issue with.
> As for the rest Charlie, it appears that it is ok for someone (who
> just happens to be of the obstetric persuasion) to post downright rude
> comments to one member of this list without censure from the list but
> let another member (who just happens to be of the midwifery
> persuasion) make a tongue in cheek/sarcastic comment and she gets
> jumped on. It seems this list is not interested in a discussion that
> may have opposing viewpoints...As long as one agrees with the medical
> model then one is free to post, however if one doesn't agree with that
> viewpoint then one is at best ignored or blatantly insulted.
> Annemarie
> RM, etc
>
>
> I don't understand how firing those kind of statements across the list
> will serve any decent purpose. I would definitely refer you to the
> quote listed below.
>
> As to the patient in Salt Lake City, the background info that I have
> received was that this was a terrible, horrible tracing each time she
> came into the hospital. Not the kind of tracing where 4 different
> providers would give 4 different interpretations. The tracings were
> clearly terminal. This happened on several occasions with different
> providers. Each time she refused the cesarean and went outside to have
> a smoke. I'm not either advocating or arguing against legal
> prosecution for this woman. But, this woman refused immediate cesarean
> for the worst possible looking tracing not because the AFI was a
> little low, or her BPP was 6 out of 10.
> ***********************************************************************
> *****
> Charlie Chambers
> Hood River, OR
> cchamber@alumni.rice.edu
>
> "Almost anything you do will seem insignificant but it is very
> important
> that you do it....You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
> -- Mahatma Ghandi.
> ***********************************************************************
> ********
>
> On Mar 18, 2004, at 10:57 PM, Kipperkid wrote:
>
> Yes Donna, for heavens sakes you might actually challenge the fragile
> egos
> that reside on this list ;-) Heaven forbid anyone should agree with a
> lowly
> midwife.
> In disgust and sisterhood
> Annemarie
> RM, BMid, New Zealand (also the victim of this kind of attitude on this
> list...but still here!)
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Braun, R. Daniel" <rbraun@iupui.edu>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L" <ob-gyn-l@dns.obgyn.net>
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:45 AM
> Subject: RE: choices
>
> OK, eveerybody, just bite your tongues and keep quiet.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net on behalf of donna
> Sent: Thu 3/18/2004 3:30 PM
> To: Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L
> Cc:
> Subject: choices
>
> """"If our culture doesn't quickly get some intensive schooling on the
> fact
>
> that with pregnancy, labor, and delivery there *are no guarantees* and
> superior care *will not eliminate many bad outcomes*, I do not feel
> hopeful.""
>
> and the place to start would be Midwives being part of the choices for
> women to make. To be able to choose a homebirth with a
> Midwife. When we educate and inform...true information,.. then people
> feel
> they are part of the process not something that is being DONE to them.
> Since homebirth with a non CNM midwife has proven to be as safe as any
> other place to birth, we as a society should offer that to all women.
> There are NO guarantees thus EACH women must make their own decisions
>
> Donna
> alabama midwife.
>
************************************************************************
**
Charlie Chambers
Hood River, OR USA
cchamber@alumni. rice. edu
"I'm a goin fishin.
Yeah, I'm goin fishin
And my baby's goin fishin too!"
Taj Mahal
************************************************************************
--Apple-Mail-1-492133364
--
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/enriched;
charset=ISO-8859-1
Basically, the case in Salt Lake was very unusual. No one was
guaranteeing anything except that the babies needed to be delivered.
And the interpretation of the tracing was rather obvious. Who knows
what the outcome would have been if the kids were delivered by
cesarean, perhaps significantly impaired. But, the parties involved
(and they were multiple) were uniformly of the opinion that the
tracing was terminal. You must agree that there are the rare tracings
where clearly the placenta is failing quite obviously.
I love to hear every viewpoint, contradictory or not. I'm not close
minded enough to believe that I don't have a lot to learn about this
profession. And I don't like rude comments from either side of the
aisle. I was simply suggesting perhaps a more civil approach for you
and for the rest of the participants. If you want to get a rather
inflammatory reaction on this list, it's rather simple to do. If you
want to have a civil discourse, then why not let it start with you? I
think all of us have been guilty in the past of being rude to others
within the profession, but it doesn't justify perpetuating the
insults.
Anyway, say what you will. It was only just a suggestion.
On Mar 19, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Kipperkid wrote:
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><x-tad-smaller>The
question still remains though...if the trace was terminal can we be
sure that C/S would have resulted in a live baby? I simply do not
believe that "anyone" could (or should) guarantee this woman (or any
woman) a healthy baby. To make this kind of guarantee opens the way
for litigation of the sort the members of this list seem to have an
issue with. </x-tad-smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><x-tad-smaller>As for the
rest Charlie, it appears that it is ok for someone (who just happens
to be of the obstetric persuasion) to post downright rude comments to
one member of this list without censure from the list but let another
member (who just happens to be of the midwifery persuasion) make a
tongue in cheek/sarcastic comment and she gets jumped on. It
seems this list is not interested in a discussion that may have
opposing viewpoints...As long as one agrees with the medical model
then one is free to post, however if one doesn't agree with that
viewpoint then one is at best ignored or blatantly insulted.</x-tad-smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>
=
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><x-tad-smaller>Annemarie</x-tad-smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><x-tad-smaller>RM, etc</x-tad-smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>
I don't understand how firing those kind of statements across the list
will serve any decent purpose. I would definitely refer you to the
quote listed below.
As to the patient in Salt Lake City, the background info that I have
received was that this was a terrible, horrible tracing each time she
came into the hospital. Not the kind of tracing where 4 different
providers would give 4 different interpretations. The tracings were
clearly terminal. This happened on several occasions with different
providers. Each time she refused the cesarean and went outside to have
a smoke. I'm not either advocating or arguing against legal
prosecution for this woman. But, this woman refused immediate cesarean
for the worst possible looking tracing not because the AFI was a
little low, or her BPP was 6 out of 10.
=
****************************************************************************
Charlie Chambers
Hood River, OR
cchamber@alumni.rice.edu
"Almost anything you do will seem insignificant but it is very
important
that you do it....You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
-- Mahatma Ghandi.
=
*******************************************************************************
On Mar 18, 2004, at 10:57 PM, Kipperkid wrote:
Yes Donna, for heavens sakes you might actually challenge the fragile
egos
that reside on this list ;-) Heaven forbid anyone should agree with a
lowly
midwife.
In disgust and sisterhood
Annemarie
RM, BMid, New Zealand (also the victim of this kind of attitude on this
list...but still here!)
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Braun, R. Daniel" <<rbraun@iupui.edu>
To: "Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L" <<ob-gyn-l@dns.obgyn.net>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: choices
OK, eveerybody, just bite your tongues and keep quiet.
-----Original Message-----
From: ob-gyn-l@obgyn.net on behalf of donna
Sent: Thu 3/18/2004 3:30 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list OB-GYN-L
Cc:
Subject: choices
""""If our culture doesn't quickly get some intensive schooling on the
fact
that with pregnancy, labor, and delivery there *are no guarantees* and
superior care *will not eliminate many bad outcomes*, I do not feel
hopeful.""
and the place to start would be Midwives being part of the choices for
women to make. To be able to choose a homebirth with a
Midwife. When we educate and inform...true information,.. then people
feel
they are part of the process not something that is being DONE to them.
Since homebirth with a non CNM midwife has proven to be as safe as any
other place to birth, we as a society should offer that to all women.
There are NO guarantees thus EACH women must make their own decisions
Donna
alabama midwife.
=
</excerpt>**************************************************************************
Charlie Chambers
Hood River, OR USA
cchamber@alumni. rice. edu
"I'm a goin fishin.
Yeah, I'm goin fishin
And my baby's goin fishin too!"
Taj Mahal
************************************************************************
--
